FS: I6 headers 4.2L

[novajoe]

The MPG gain is a given when increasing the power and efficiency of an EFI motor. The motor is basically an air pump. The more efficiently you can get the air in and out of the motor the more efficient that motor is. So if you increase the efficiency of the motor you make more power, and because you now have more power available from that motor it no longer has to work as hard to do the same amount of work thus it will use less fuel to perform the same task. (I.E. MPG). If you have taken a close look at the factory manifold you will see that it was never designed to be efficient. The merge is not designed to take advantage of the exhaust pulse created by the firing order of the motor and each exhaust runner is narrowed just before the common merge point creating turbulence and reduced exhaust flow. With fuel prices where they are it wouldn't take long for even a small gain of lets say three MPG to make a difference in your wallet.

[novajoe]

Have any been built to have any proof of the HP, MPG, or Torque improvement claims?

The headers are still in R&D at this time. So we do not have the final numbers yet. As soon as I have the final numbers I will post them.

[fishsticks]

From the description, is it safe to assume this is a full length header that ends at the muffler connection? Is this a single piece unit? I know you guys are probably still finishing the prototype, so pics might be hard to come by right now.

[HARDTRAILZ]

3 MPG would be worthwhile, but seems pretty incredible. I hope its true and the follow up purchases are not too much more money. $700 for a 20% increase in MPG would not be hard to make up over the life of the truck. Just really difficult to believe or to commit money to hopes not facts.


Edit- While I do understand the air pump theory...you can only put so much air in the system and only so much needs to go out. At some point the gains end.

[novajoe]

From the description, is it safe to assume this is a full length header that ends at the muffler connection? Is this a single piece unit? I know you guys are probably still finishing the prototype, so pics might be hard to come by right now.

This is a full length header with a catted connection pipe. I don't have pictures yet because this system is in the R&D department. But as soon I get the pictures of the final product I will post them.

[navigator]

Joe, it sounds like (from the comments on all 3 boards) once you have a proto-type with some dyno-results you'll hit the 20 pretty quickly.

[novajoe]

Joe, it sounds like (from the comments on all 3 boards) once you have a proto-type with some dyno-results you'll hit the 20 pretty quickly.

That is the plan. Once the prototype is done a fixture is made so that every header that is produced is exactly the same, and prevents any fitment issues.

[JCrayton99]

Any time table?

[novajoe]

We are shooting for Six to eight weeks right now. So it could make a great Christmas present for a lucky TB owner.

[bartonmd]

The MPG gain is a given when increasing the power and efficiency of an EFI motor. The motor is basically an air pump. The more efficiently you can get the air in and out of the motor the more efficient that motor is. So if you increase the efficiency of the motor you make more power, and because you now have more power available from that motor it no longer has to work as hard to do the same amount of work thus it will use less fuel to perform the same task. (I.E. MPG). If you have taken a close look at the factory manifold you will see that it was never designed to be efficient. The merge is not designed to take advantage of the exhaust pulse created by the firing order of the motor and each exhaust runner is narrowed just before the common merge point creating turbulence and reduced exhaust flow. With fuel prices where they are it wouldn't take long for even a small gain of lets say three MPG to make a difference in your wallet.

No. Your automotive/ICE engineering classes must have been different than mine. The speed at which gasses travel out the exhaust changes with engine RPM and throttle position. Yes, headers increase efficiency at WOT/redline, and should (if designed correctly) increase gas mileage at WOT/redline. The stock cast manifold is not ideal for WOT/redline, but was designed and tuned for getting fuel mileage at highway cruise RPM/throttle position. The TB was a big production, low MPG vehicle, so anything they could do to get better mileage out of it while still meeting the design criteria was done. One of these things is optimizing the intake and exhaust tracts for the best fuel mileage at the RPM and throttle positions of the EPA fuel mileage tests. These guys would give their left nut for a 1% increase in gas mileage on a vehicle like this, so there's no way they left 15-20% on the table from something as simple as exhaust manifold design on a manifold designed specifically for this vehicle. Period.

Also, to the runners getting smaller before the collector comment... The Romans had aquaducts that fed their cities running water. As the populations got larger and and the aquaducts were at capacity, every household had to have water restriction plates on their water outlets, to conserve water. It didn't take long before people figured out how to get more flow out of the same size restrictor plate. They necked down the pipe to speed the water up through the plate, then transitioned into a larger diameter pipe which essentially added suction and caused them to be able to get more water out of their outlet than if they had just stopped at the plate. In fact, it was pretty much the same amount of water flow as they had gotten without the restriction plate. Same goes for exhaust gasses, and size changes are one of the things that they use to tune for efficiency in a specific flow/temperature profile, especially going into a collector.

Now, I can see maybe 1/2mpg out of a high flow cat, because 1/2-1mpg is what people get by replacing them with a straight pipe, but there's going to have to be some REAL voodoo to get an extra 3mpg out of this, in a property tuned vehicle. The vehicle would have to have been tuned before, and have the map changed for the the different flow vs. rpm characteristics of the exhaust. I can see 2-3mpg by working the lean spots in the stock map that now doesn't fit with the flow profile of the engine, but in a properly tuned engine, I can't see it.

I have been wrong before, though, so I hope you prove me wrong. My point to others is that I wouldn't buy this expecting to amortize it in gas savings of 20%, without first seeing it done. I have no doubt it'll make a bit more WOT power, though. My only reservations are about the 20% gas savings.

Mike

[novajoe]

The MPG gain is a given when increasing the power and efficiency of an EFI motor. The motor is basically an air pump. The more efficiently you can get the air in and out of the motor the more efficient that motor is. So if you increase the efficiency of the motor you make more power, and because you now have more power available from that motor it no longer has to work as hard to do the same amount of work thus it will use less fuel to perform the same task. (I.E. MPG). If you have taken a close look at the factory manifold you will see that it was never designed to be efficient. The merge is not designed to take advantage of the exhaust pulse created by the firing order of the motor and each exhaust runner is narrowed just before the common merge point creating turbulence and reduced exhaust flow. With fuel prices where they are it wouldn't take long for even a small gain of lets say three MPG to make a difference in your wallet.

No. Your automotive/ICE engineering classes must have been different than mine. The speed at which gasses travel out the exhaust changes with engine RPM and throttle position. Yes, headers increase efficiency at WOT/redline, and should (if designed correctly) increase gas mileage at WOT/redline. The stock cast manifold is not ideal for WOT/redline, but was designed and tuned for getting fuel mileage at highway cruise RPM/throttle position. The TB was a big production, low MPG vehicle, so anything they could do to get better mileage out of it while still meeting the design criteria was done. One of these things is optimizing the intake and exhaust tracts for the best fuel mileage at the RPM and throttle positions of the EPA fuel mileage tests. These guys would give their left nut for a 1% increase in gas mileage on a vehicle like this, so there's no way they left 15-20% on the table from something as simple as exhaust manifold design on a manifold designed specifically for this vehicle. Period.

Also, to the runners getting smaller before the collector comment... The Romans had aquaducts that fed their cities running water. As the populations got larger and and the aquaducts were at capacity, every household had to have water restriction plates on their water outlets, to conserve water. It didn't take long before people figured out how to get more flow out of the same size restrictor plate. They necked down the pipe to speed the water up through the plate, then transitioned into a larger diameter pipe which essentially added suction and caused them to be able to get more water out of their outlet than if they had just stopped at the plate. In fact, it was pretty much the same amount of water flow as they had gotten without the restriction plate. Same goes for exhaust gasses, and size changes are one of the things that they use to tune for efficiency in a specific flow/temperature profile, especially going into a collector.

Now, I can see maybe 1/2mpg out of a high flow cat, because 1/2-1mpg is what people get by replacing them with a straight pipe, but there's going to have to be some REAL voodoo to get an extra 3mpg out of this, in a property tuned vehicle. The vehicle would have to have been tuned before, and have the map changed for the the different flow vs. rpm characteristics of the exhaust. I can see 2-3mpg by working the lean spots in the stock map that now doesn't fit with the flow profile of the engine, but in a properly tuned engine, I can't see it.

I have been wrong before, though, so I hope you prove me wrong. My point to others is that I wouldn't buy this expecting to amortize it in gas savings of 20%, without first seeing it done. I have no doubt it'll make a bit more WOT power, though. My only reservations are about the 20% gas savings.

Mike

First off this is just an estimate. This system does include a high flow catalytic converter and with any modern fuel injected motor that has had changes made to the air flow characteristics a tune is a must to take advantage of those changes. This was all taken into consideration during the planing stages of this project. I will post the final numbers once the testing is done. I would also like to point out that you theory is fundamentally correct in an ideal setting it doesn't however take in to account for the real world. An engineer may want the best design but is limited by by cost and speed of manufacturing. If the GM's engineers made everything to be as efficient as it could be the aftermarket would go out of business. If you look inside a cast manifold at the imperfections that are left from the casting posses, that cause turbulence and reduce the inefficiency of the manifold, so a smooth tube will flow much better with reduced turbulence. So always keep in mind that the book is only a guide and nothing is set in stone till it is done in the real world.

[HARDTRAILZ]

So always keep in mind that the book is only a guide and nothing is set in stone till it is done in the real world.

Hence why we are sketchy on your claims... I recall something about a cart before a horse.

Are you going to test with stock muffler and resonator? Are you going to test with just an open cat? Are you going to test on both the 02-05 and 06 and newer motors? How many miles will you you record MPG on before and after install? Are you going to use a completely stock truck for testing? Are you going to do a tune to maximize numbers? Are you going to offer a tune since "a tune is a must"? Are you going to test on multiple trucks? Do you have full history of maintenence on the test truck or trucks(plugs, coils, mileage, throttle body cleanings)? These items can really affect these motors. Please share what you can so we can all get on board and benefit from the product and help you sell as many as possible.

[novajoe]

The test vehicle for the prototype is an 04 2LT with 130k on the clock. This vehicle has had all normal maintenance and is completely stock. The throttle bod is cleaned at every oil change. The TB will be dynoed before the install, after the install, and after the tune. We have already talked with a tune shop that is very familiar with the I6 TB so that they can offer a tune for the header conversion. The MPG data has been collected over the past month and will be compared to the data that will be repeated after the install. Keep in mind that there is always a margin of error with these numbers because you can take two identical cars off the lot and get different numbers even on a new car. But we will make every effort to make sure the information is as accurate as it can be. I do not have the data on the 06+ vehicle yet.

[bartonmd]

No. Your automotive/ICE engineering classes must have been different than mine. The speed at which gasses travel out the exhaust changes with engine RPM and throttle position. Yes, headers increase efficiency at WOT/redline, and should (if designed correctly) increase gas mileage at WOT/redline. The stock cast manifold is not ideal for WOT/redline, but was designed and tuned for getting fuel mileage at highway cruise RPM/throttle position. The TB was a big production, low MPG vehicle, so anything they could do to get better mileage out of it while still meeting the design criteria was done. One of these things is optimizing the intake and exhaust tracts for the best fuel mileage at the RPM and throttle positions of the EPA fuel mileage tests. These guys would give their left nut for a 1% increase in gas mileage on a vehicle like this, so there's no way they left 15-20% on the table from something as simple as exhaust manifold design on a manifold designed specifically for this vehicle. Period.

Also, to the runners getting smaller before the collector comment... The Romans had aquaducts that fed their cities running water. As the populations got larger and and the aquaducts were at capacity, every household had to have water restriction plates on their water outlets, to conserve water. It didn't take long before people figured out how to get more flow out of the same size restrictor plate. They necked down the pipe to speed the water up through the plate, then transitioned into a larger diameter pipe which essentially added suction and caused them to be able to get more water out of their outlet than if they had just stopped at the plate. In fact, it was pretty much the same amount of water flow as they had gotten without the restriction plate. Same goes for exhaust gasses, and size changes are one of the things that they use to tune for efficiency in a specific flow/temperature profile, especially going into a collector.

Now, I can see maybe 1/2mpg out of a high flow cat, because 1/2-1mpg is what people get by replacing them with a straight pipe, but there's going to have to be some REAL voodoo to get an extra 3mpg out of this, in a property tuned vehicle. The vehicle would have to have been tuned before, and have the map changed for the the different flow vs. rpm characteristics of the exhaust. I can see 2-3mpg by working the lean spots in the stock map that now doesn't fit with the flow profile of the engine, but in a properly tuned engine, I can't see it.

I have been wrong before, though, so I hope you prove me wrong. My point to others is that I wouldn't buy this expecting to amortize it in gas savings of 20%, without first seeing it done. I have no doubt it'll make a bit more WOT power, though. My only reservations are about the 20% gas savings.

Mike

First off this is just an estimate. This system does include a high flow catalytic converter and with any modern fuel injected motor that has had changes made to the air flow characteristics a tune is a must to take advantage of those changes. This was all taken into consideration during the planing stages of this project. I will post the final numbers once the testing is done. I would also like to point out that you theory is fundamentally correct in an ideal setting it doesn't however take in to account for the real world. An engineer may want the best design but is limited by by cost and speed of manufacturing. If the GM's engineers made everything to be as efficient as it could be the aftermarket would go out of business. If you look inside a cast manifold at the imperfections that are left from the casting posses, that cause turbulence and reduce the inefficiency of the manifold, so a smooth tube will flow much better with reduced turbulence. So always keep in mind that the book is only a guide and nothing is set in stone till it is done in the real world.

yeah, somebody should tell auto manufacturers that they should have test departments, so they can test how different parts and changes work in real life. If that was directed toward me, I've been out of school for 10 years, so yes, I know real world is not exactly like the calculations.

Now, the edges and flashing that could be down inside there hinder flow, but a slightly rough surface is slicker to fluids (air behaving like a fluid) than a completely smooth surface. Small eddies of the fluid have less resistance to the passing large mass of fluid than a smooth surface with no eddies. In this instance, it probably isn't a big deal either way, as hot exhaust gasses are pretty thin, so any losses (or gains) from the smoothness of the walls would be extremely minimal.

Actually, it's easy to make more power than stock, but there's not a lot of stuff that makes much more fuel mileage than stock. I think the best bang for the buck in gas mileage increases is from a tune, because they have been leaving some timing on the table, and using the knock sensor less, presumably for engine durability and emissions, being that everything's aluminum these days. Also, with the 3-way cats that we have had for a while, now, the engine has to be run rich to work with them, to get away from creating too much NOx, which the cats can't get rid of without the lean NOx traps that are on the horizon. Not having to worry about passing emissions to factory levels, you can go with a high flow cat, the timing can be advanced, and you can get rid of some of the richness for the cat, and get some decent gains.

The test vehicle for the prototype is an 04 2LT with 130k on the clock. This vehicle has had all normal maintenance and is completely stock. The throttle bod is cleaned at every oil change. The TB will be dynoed before the install, after the install, and after the tune. We have already talked with a tune shop that is very familiar with the I6 TB so that they can offer a tune for the header conversion. The MPG data has been collected over the past month and will be compared to the data that will be repeated after the install. Keep in mind that there is always a margin of error with these numbers because you can take two identical cars off the lot and get different numbers even on a new car. But we will make every effort to make sure the information is as accurate as it can be. I do not have the data on the 06+ vehicle yet.

OK, I would believe 3mpg out of this setup. I am saying 1mpg out of the hardware, and I got ~2mpg out of my tune. A real comparison would be to tune the vehicle before, and get the 1.5-2mpg out of the tune, then do the header, and only re-tune the fuel maps for the flow charactoristic differences, then keep a good mileage log afterward.

Mike

[dvanbramer88]

Now, the edges and flashing that could be down inside there hinder flow, but a slightly rough surface is slicker to fluids (air behaving like a fluid) than a completely smooth surface. Small eddies of the fluid have less resistance to the passing large mass of fluid than a smooth surface with no eddies. In this instance, it probably isn't a big deal either way, as hot exhaust gasses are pretty thin, so any losses (or gains) from the smoothness of the walls would be extremely minimal.

Like dimples on a golf ball. Mythbusters did this with a car and saw gains in fuel mileage with a "dimpled" car. The small turbulences "insulate" the main mass of moving air from the friction of the walls of the tube it is flowing through, or the surface it is flowing over.

[novajoe]

yeah, somebody should tell auto manufacturers that they should have test departments, so they can test how different parts and changes work in real life. If that was directed toward me, I've been out of school for 10 years, so yes, I know real world is not exactly like the calculations.

Now, the edges and flashing that could be down inside there hinder flow, but a slightly rough surface is slicker to fluids (air behaving like a fluid) than a completely smooth surface. Small eddies of the fluid have less resistance to the passing large mass of fluid than a smooth surface with no eddies. In this instance, it probably isn't a big deal either way, as hot exhaust gasses are pretty thin, so any losses (or gains) from the smoothness of the walls would be extremely minimal.

Actually, it's easy to make more power than stock, but there's not a lot of stuff that makes much more fuel mileage than stock. I think the best bang for the buck in gas mileage increases is from a tune, because they have been leaving some timing on the table, and using the knock sensor less, presumably for engine durability and emissions, being that everything's aluminum these days. Also, with the 3-way cats that we have had for a while, now, the engine has to be run rich to work with them, to get away from creating too much NOx, which the cats can't get rid of without the lean NOx traps that are on the horizon. Not having to worry about passing emissions to factory levels, you can go with a high flow cat, the timing can be advanced, and you can get rid of some of the richness for the cat, and get some decent gains.

The test vehicle for the prototype is an 04 2LT with 130k on the clock. This vehicle has had all normal maintenance and is completely stock. The throttle bod is cleaned at every oil change. The TB will be dynoed before the install, after the install, and after the tune. We have already talked with a tune shop that is very familiar with the I6 TB so that they can offer a tune for the header conversion. The MPG data has been collected over the past month and will be compared to the data that will be repeated after the install. Keep in mind that there is always a margin of error with these numbers because you can take two identical cars off the lot and get different numbers even on a new car. But we will make every effort to make sure the information is as accurate as it can be. I do not have the data on the 06+ vehicle yet.

OK, I would believe 3mpg out of this setup. I am saying 1mpg out of the hardware, and I got ~2mpg out of my tune. A real comparison would be to tune the vehicle before, and get the 1.5-2mpg out of the tune, then do the header, and only re-tune the fuel maps for the flow charactoristic differences, then keep a good mileage log afterward.

Mike

Nope it wasn't anything against you, I was just clarifying on the statements. I actually like the fact that you challenge the statements. As I know a lot of people are following the build and this will help answer questions that they may have now or will have as they consider an upgrade. Where did you go to school?

[HARDTRAILZ]

https://engineering.purdue.edu/Engr/Abo ... s/Rankings

He went to some halfass school and partied too much....

[bartonmd]

Purdue EET, specialization in Automotive Electronic Control. Have been an ME the whole time since I got out, and practically my whole family are Engineers in the automotive industry.

Mike

[novajoe]

Purdue EET, specialization in Automotive Electronic Control. Have been an ME the whole time since I got out, and practically my whole family are Engineers in the automotive industry.

Mike

I went to S.I.U. in Carbondale, and come from a GM family,and I have been under a hood from the time I could hold a wrench.

[bartonmd]

Purdue EET, specialization in Automotive Electronic Control. Have been an ME the whole time since I got out, and practically my whole family are Engineers in the automotive industry.

Mike

I went to S.I.U. in Carbondale, and come from a GM family,and I have been under a hood from the time I could hold a wrench.

Yep, same here!

A good friend of mine, and my cousin both went there. Good school!

Mike