Feeler thread, adjustable end links.

[TransAm-98]

Trying to see who might be interested in some adjustable end links. Price would be $200 a pair, or $350 for a complete set. We currently have enough materials to make 2 sets and were trying to see if we should order some more parts up. Also, just so you know. When I did my rears, the mounting hole in the sway bars was just a hair too shy for the 1/2" hardware so I had to bore it out. If this is a problem for anyone let me know. And if so, maybe you'd be kind enough to take a measurement of the bolt size of your rear end link and we can see about ordering some smaller rod ends for the rear. We felt drilling out to rear sway bar was simple enough to do for a little bit of added strength.

Thanks,
Ryan

[The Roadie]

They look nice, but disconnectability is a bit more important here than length adjustability. What do your bolts look like and can they be made disconnectable?

[bartonmd]

Price would be $200 a pair, or $350 for a complete set.

I was feeling bad about charging $100/pair...

Mike

[The Roadie]

For about $40 a pair for cheap rears (Mevotech or Deeza) and under $60 a pair for the fronts, yours have to be twice as strong as aftermarket, and Ryan's need to be 3.5 times as long-lasting. Mine usually break or fall off from loose nuts before they break, however.

[bartonmd]

By the nature of heim joints, they're stronger than ball joints, but they don't last as long, because they get crap in them that eats them up... The good thing is that 1/2" heims are $7 each, and the other parts are what makes them special...

Mike

[fishsticks]

Price would be $200 a pair, or $350 for a complete set.

I was feeling bad about charging $100/pair...

Mike

I stopped reading at his price.

[TransAm-98]

Sorry about the price, my coworker just asked me to put it out there for you guys. Cost in materials alone for a full set is over $200 for us. I'll let him know the price is a little steep and see what he says. It's his shop so he makes the call.

Roadie - I didn't feel comfortable offering them as quick disconnect because I'm still playing around with that on my car. But it is possible to do with these end links. This is what my hardware looks like. I haven't had any issues with broken bolts yet or nuts loosening up yet with my quick disconnect setup or just bolted on. We use really solid locknuts (not the nylock kind) and so far they've proven amazing in everything we use them in.

[v7guy]

yeah, that price for something that can't be easily disconnected is a no go. It's even a bit rough for something that can be easily disconnected.

[fishsticks]

Sorry about the price, my coworker just asked me to put it out there for you guys. Cost in materials alone for a full set is over $200 for us. I'll let him know the price is a little steep and see what he says. It's his shop so he makes the call.

We have another vendor here, GR Fab, who is turning out rod ended rear control arms for the same price your guy wants for a set of endlinks. I can't see a set of heims and some tube costing $200.

I'm not trying to be a killjoy/dick/whatever, just realistic.

Many of the folks here who wheel a lot have removed one or both swaybars. $350 for a set of endlinks I can make myself on a Saturday afternoon isn't going to convince me to put my swaybars back on.

Again, this is said with all due respect. Not trying to trash on you.


Edit: Also, the stud size is 12mm.

[TransAm-98]

I posted a list of the parts that we used in the smaax thread awhile back. You can look it up and do the math to see what price the parts come out to. There are cheaper alternatives obviously, like a set of Smaax for $100 less. Or we could could have found some tube and welded nuts to the end, or gone even cheaper and just threaded a male heim joint into a female heim joint and called it a day. Instead we used quality parts, nice tube adapters with a lot more thread to support a lot more weight, threaded accordingly so that you can adjust the end link on the car without unbolting one side of it. I believe it to be a very solid piece with little chance of breaking or wearing out. I know a lot of people ride around with no swaybar and I did too for awhile. I didn't put them pack on until we made these and I have to say that it feels 100x better since I did. Especially driving through mountain roads with my GF up front + gear and 2 large dogs in the back. We didn't mean to offend anyone with the price, but if you want to look up the cost of materials you can see where it comes from. I'm still working on making quick disconnect version that I would feel confident putting my name on. I suppose we can try this again once I've ironed out the kinks in that.

[bartonmd]

I posted a list of the parts that we used in the smaax thread awhile back. You can look it up and do the math to see what price the parts come out to. There are cheaper alternatives obviously, like a set of Smaax for $100 less. Or we could could have found some tube and welded nuts to the end, or gone even cheaper and just threaded a male heim joint into a female heim joint and called it a day. Instead we used quality parts, nice tube adapters with a lot more thread to support a lot more weight, threaded accordingly so that you can adjust the end link on the car without unbolting one side of it. I believe it to be a very solid piece with little chance of breaking or wearing out. I know a lot of people ride around with no swaybar and I did too for awhile. I didn't put them pack on until we made these and I have to say that it feels 100x better since I did. Especially driving through mountain roads with my GF up front + gear and 2 large dogs in the back. We didn't mean to offend anyone with the price, but if you want to look up the cost of materials you can see where it comes from. I'm still working on making quick disconnect version that I would feel confident putting my name on. I suppose we can try this again once I've ironed out the kinks in that.

I understand that was directed at me, but if it's strong enough, why not? There doesn't seem to be a need to use the "high strength" heims or over-sized tube for this...

Heims, greasable: 4444T301 - $7.05 each = $28.20/pair
tube-end welded nuts: 94640A160 - $5.14 each = $20.56/pair
7/8 I.D tube: 89955K95 - $64/6ft = ~$11/pair
Grade 8 bolts - $2 each = $8/pair
Interference-threaded nuts I told you to use in the first place - $1/each = $4/pair
Lug nuts you should be using - $2 each = $8/pair

Total parts cost per pair - ~$80... $55 if you just weld nuts onto 1/2" I.D. DOM tube...

Further, you used 1/2 of my design (which I gave you in the SMAXX thread), but you should have used all of it... Your bottom mount will not work... It's doing exactly the same thing as somebody putting the nut halfway onto a stock end link... It's going to rock back and forth in the hole in the control arm, and wollow the hole out to the point of not being useable. I also told you this in the SMAXX thread. Also, your top bolt isn't deep enough, and isn't into the interference-threaded part of the nut...



If somebody wants to make their own wrench-disconnectable, long lasting, dirt-resistant adjustable links with no welding, they can just get some of these (below) and some threaded rod...



6058K39 for $10 each, or $40/set

ETA: Or like you said above, if somebody wants to make their own QD links with no welding, they can use my design for the bolts (again, spoon-fed in the SMAXX thread), and use a pair of the female links and some threaded rod... Those break out like:

4444T231 - $6.98 each = $28/pair
Grade 8 bolts - $2 each = $8/pair
Interference-threaded nuts I told you to use in the first place - $1/each = $4/pair
Lug nuts you should be using - $2 each = $8/pair

So $48 for something more than as strong as it needs to be, that doesn't require a welder... Just a drill press, or a hand drill and a vice...

Mike

[Skidder]

By the nature of heim joints, they're stronger than ball joints, but they don't last as long, because they get crap in them that eats them up... The good thing is that 1/2" heims are $7 each, and the other parts are what makes them special...

Mike

Mike/Ryan, (it was Mike's quote/but Ryan is Dr. Frankenstein in this thread) Just want to be sure I interpreted this comment correctly. It seemed to me that you mean, "Instead of 100 bucks per pair (SMaxx) that you will have to replace every year (just a WAG), Ryan's would be a larger up front cost, with 7 buck replacement cost for each heim joint failure every year (again, just a WAG)".

So basically over a two year period, new SMaxx every year = 400 bucks. Ryans...350 bucks up front + 56 bucks for all new heim joints for second year (which is not likely?) = 406 bucks. Third year, SMaxx total = 600 bucks. Ryans total = 462 bucks...

Sounds like this option gets less expensive over the years, because the base parts are not "fire and forget". So, if you look at this like a chess player (more than one move at a time), instead of a checker player (no thought beyond the next move), this option may not be a bad as the shock value of the initial cost.

Not really realevant, but I really like the looks of these. If they were painted with zinc chromate, they would look just like the control linkages on every helicopter I've flown for the last 20+ years in the military. Ha.

[bartonmd]

By the nature of heim joints, they're stronger than ball joints, but they don't last as long, because they get crap in them that eats them up... The good thing is that 1/2" heims are $7 each, and the other parts are what makes them special...

Mike

Mike/Ryan, (it was Mike's quote/but Ryan is Dr. Frankenstein in this thread) Just want to be sure I interpreted this comment correctly. It seemed to me that you mean, "Instead of 100 bucks per pair (SMaxx) that you will have to replace every year (just a WAG), Ryan's would be a larger up front cost, with 7 buck replacement cost for each heim joint failure every year (again, just a WAG)".

So basically over a two year period, new SMaxx every year = 400 bucks. Ryans...350 bucks up front + 56 bucks for all new heim joints for second year (which is not likely?) = 406 bucks. Third year, SMaxx total = 600 bucks. Ryans total = 462 bucks...

Sounds like this option gets less expensive over the years, because the base parts are not "fire and forget". So, if you look at this like a chess player (more than one move at a time), instead of a checker player (no thought beyond the next move), this option may not be a bad as the shock value of the initial cost.

Not really realevant, but I really like the looks of these. If they were painted with zinc chromate, they would look just like the control linkages on every helicopter I've flown for the last 20+ years in the military. Ha.

Um... sort of... I expect the bolts to have to be replaced from wear every couple sets of heims... As the heims wear on the bolts, coupled with salt/rust pitting, and sand/dirt wear, I expect the second set of heims will start semi-loose on the bolts, and clank a little bit from the get-go, and wear faster than the first time; and the third set on the original bolts wouldn't last long, at all, I suspect... The bolts are, after all, the only thing that makes any of this at all special... And as I started to mention above, the bolts can be made with a hack-saw, a Cobalt drill bit, and a drill/vice by anybody... So if you're looking for cost-effective, the thing to do is the double-female heims, hack saw the correct amount of all-thread between them, make your own bolts, and you're looking at a flat maximum of $50/year, for all new joints every year (if they require that)... This is about the cheapest way to go, for quick-disco, anybody can do it at home, and it's still plenty strong for the application...

If Ryan keeps the half-baked lower joint, they do need to be stronger, because there's a pretty good twisting moment on the heim, and therefore, on the area between the heims... This will tear up the lower heim (and your control arm) in a few thousand miles, I'd guess, as right now, the only thing stopping the lower bolts from twisting is locking up on the heims' end of rotational travel, and locking up on the amount it can rock in the hole on the control arm... Both of these will wear quickly...

Mike

[HARDTRAILZ]

Having broke a few prototypes from another vendor and ending up without quick disco's, I shared my thoughts and experience with Mike. I am sure he has a good point of reference with the time spent testing both personally and with other members, as well as seeing my trials and tribulations firsthand. Not to say the new ones wont, but at that price point I would expect to see quite a bit more testing done.

[TransAm-98]

I understand that was directed at me, but if it's strong enough, why not? There doesn't seem to be a need to use the "high strength" heims or over-sized tube for this...

Heims, greasable: 4444T301 - $7.05 each = $28.20/pair
tube-end welded nuts: 94640A160 - $5.14 each = $20.56/pair
7/8 I.D tube: 89955K95 - $64/6ft = ~$11/pair
Grade 8 bolts - $2 each = $8/pair
Interference-threaded nuts I told you to use in the first place - $1/each = $4/pair
Lug nuts you should be using - $2 each = $8/pair

Total parts cost per pair - ~$80... $55 if you just weld nuts onto 1/2" I.D. DOM tube...

Further, you used 1/2 of my design (which I gave you in the SMAXX thread), but you should have used all of it... Your bottom mount will not work... It's doing exactly the same thing as somebody putting the nut halfway onto a stock end link... It's going to rock back and forth in the hole in the control arm, and wollow the hole out to the point of not being useable. I also told you this in the SMAXX thread. Also, your top bolt isn't deep enough, and isn't into the interference-threaded part of the nut...



If somebody wants to make their own wrench-disconnectable, long lasting, dirt-resistant adjustable links with no welding, they can just get some of these (below) and some threaded rod...



6058K39 for $10 each, or $40/set

ETA: Or like you said above, if somebody wants to make their own QD links with no welding, they can use my design for the bolts (again, spoon-fed in the SMAXX thread), and use a pair of the female links and some threaded rod... Those break out like:

4444T231 - $6.98 each = $28/pair
Grade 8 bolts - $2 each = $8/pair
Interference-threaded nuts I told you to use in the first place - $1/each = $4/pair
Lug nuts you should be using - $2 each = $8/pair

So $48 for something more than as strong as it needs to be, that doesn't require a welder... Just a drill press, or a hand drill and a vice...

Mike

Correct Barton, I did use what the advice you offered me on disconnects as you were also telling me to produce these. I used your idea on the quick disconnects on my car but as I said earlier I'm not selling quick disconnects as I'd like to have more testing done before marketing a product like that. I've been running the fixed version of these on my car since July and there has been zero wear on hardware or joints. While it is true the heim joints will allow some debris in there and may wear over time, how much rotational movement is being put on that ball that it's going to get worn out to the point of being useless and overly noisy in a swaybar application. The only reason that the stock links fail is that they are not long enough to handle the extra strain that the lift puts on them. The Smaax links wear prematurely because of a poor design that still cost you over $200 and will have to be replaced as they can't handle the abuse. As said before, this was only a feeler thread and I will absolutely take all advice/criticism and do what I can with it. This whole idea was just because I thought some of you might be interested in this product. For a market that we don't necessarily specialize in. It's really only us trying to help you guys out a bit with something we came up with. I originally posted up the link and parts list we used so you guys can do it yourself. Only after being asked to produce these did we offer to sell them. We specialize in GM cars and I offer any advice I can when we happen to have time to play with this platform, which is time we rarely have. Such as in the Treadwright thread where I told you how we tried to fix the speedo calibration and failed, then how I recently posted again on a fix for the pre 06' cars. Thanks for "spoonfeeding" me the info on disconnects Barton. I used it and am trying to better the design and am in no way shape or form taking credit for it, or selling it for that matter. We are accustomed to building cars and products for people that have a demand for product/car that will handle extreme abuse and not have to come back to us after every race for repairs or rebuilds. We used high quality products to make this part which is why the price is high on them. It would seem that the price of these has upset a few of you and I apologize for that. But we're not a fan of cutting corners, especially when the only marketed product out there right now is one that doesn't hold up. Good luck to the many other fabricators on this forum on coming up with a better and cheaper product. Competition drives innovation, and so far this thread has been pretty enlightening in that matter. So I suppose it's time for us to hit up the ol' drawing board again.

[fishsticks]

Part of running a successful business is filling a demand. The demand currently is for a no-frills, quick disconnect endlink.

You've come forward with a very nice looking, adjustable, high quality, NON-quick disconnect endlink. Also, it has a hefty pricetag.

I think you just missed the mark a little here. The market for these is going to be guys who want to run swaybars on the street. These are all lifted rigs with big tires... none of them are going to be driving from the trailhead to the autox course. I realize your natural intent is to overbuild your product to withstand extreme use (that's not a bad thing!) but understand that all these links need to do is provide basic streetability. A "high performance" product here just doesn't make sense. Most of us drive our TBs like old men compared to the cars you're probably used to making things for.

I guess what I'm trying to say is: Building this on a budget is not "cutting corners," it's engineering the product to fit the need.

[bartonmd]

I understand that was directed at me, but if it's strong enough, why not? There doesn't seem to be a need to use the "high strength" heims or over-sized tube for this...

Heims, greasable: 4444T301 - $7.05 each = $28.20/pair
tube-end welded nuts: 94640A160 - $5.14 each = $20.56/pair
7/8 I.D tube: 89955K95 - $64/6ft = ~$11/pair
Grade 8 bolts - $2 each = $8/pair
Interference-threaded nuts I told you to use in the first place - $1/each = $4/pair
Lug nuts you should be using - $2 each = $8/pair

Total parts cost per pair - ~$80... $55 if you just weld nuts onto 1/2" I.D. DOM tube...

Further, you used 1/2 of my design (which I gave you in the SMAXX thread), but you should have used all of it... Your bottom mount will not work... It's doing exactly the same thing as somebody putting the nut halfway onto a stock end link... It's going to rock back and forth in the hole in the control arm, and wollow the hole out to the point of not being useable. I also told you this in the SMAXX thread. Also, your top bolt isn't deep enough, and isn't into the interference-threaded part of the nut...



If somebody wants to make their own wrench-disconnectable, long lasting, dirt-resistant adjustable links with no welding, they can just get some of these (below) and some threaded rod...



6058K39 for $10 each, or $40/set

ETA: Or like you said above, if somebody wants to make their own QD links with no welding, they can use my design for the bolts (again, spoon-fed in the SMAXX thread), and use a pair of the female links and some threaded rod... Those break out like:

4444T231 - $6.98 each = $28/pair
Grade 8 bolts - $2 each = $8/pair
Interference-threaded nuts I told you to use in the first place - $1/each = $4/pair
Lug nuts you should be using - $2 each = $8/pair

So $48 for something more than as strong as it needs to be, that doesn't require a welder... Just a drill press, or a hand drill and a vice...

Mike

Correct Barton, I did use what the advice you offered me on disconnects as you were also telling me to produce these. I used your idea on the quick disconnects on my car but as I said earlier I'm not selling quick disconnects as I'd like to have more testing done before marketing a product like that. I've been running the fixed version of these on my car since July and there has been zero wear on hardware or joints. While it is true the heim joints will allow some debris in there and may wear over time, how much rotational movement is being put on that ball that it's going to get worn out to the point of being useless and overly noisy in a swaybar application. The only reason that the stock links fail is that they are not long enough to handle the extra strain that the lift puts on them. The Smaax links wear prematurely because of a poor design that still cost you over $200 and will have to be replaced as they can't handle the abuse. As said before, this was only a feeler thread and I will absolutely take all advice/criticism and do what I can with it. This whole idea was just because I thought some of you might be interested in this product. For a market that we don't necessarily specialize in. It's really only us trying to help you guys out a bit with something we came up with. I originally posted up the link and parts list we used so you guys can do it yourself. Only after being asked to produce these did we offer to sell them. We specialize in GM cars and I offer any advice I can when we happen to have time to play with this platform, which is time we rarely have. Such as in the Treadwright thread where I told you how we tried to fix the speedo calibration and failed, then how I recently posted again on a fix for the pre 06' cars. Thanks for "spoonfeeding" me the info on disconnects Barton. I used it and am trying to better the design and am in no way shape or form taking credit for it, or selling it for that matter. We are accustomed to building cars and products for people that have a demand for product/car that will handle extreme abuse and not have to come back to us after every race for repairs or rebuilds. We used high quality products to make this part which is why the price is high on them. It would seem that the price of these has upset a few of you and I apologize for that. But we're not a fan of cutting corners, especially when the only marketed product out there right now is one that doesn't hold up. Good luck to the many other fabricators on this forum on coming up with a better and cheaper product. Competition drives innovation, and so far this thread has been pretty enlightening in that matter. So I suppose it's time for us to hit up the ol' drawing board again.

To add to what Donny said, my point about the spoonfeeding (which was more telling people that there was a very detailed specification that they could do themselves, not about me spoonfeeding it to you) was that you still messed it up... For all your talk of over-building stuff so it can be raced and not come back broken, and hold up to extreme abuse, your "better design" lower link setup is not instilling confidence in your design and engineering; especially after I told you how to do it right (at least one of the ways)... I've done a bunch of stuff that I get near completion, look at it, say "that's not going to work," and scrap or change it. There are even pictures around here of stuff that I've done, messed up, and changed... This is why I told you why the lower link setup wasn't going to work in the SMAXX thread, but didn't go any farther than that... Posting it here without saying something like "I messed up. The lower mounting end of the links are junk, but here's basically what I'm talking about" says to me that you still think that will work... The rest of that was just in response to the underlined phrase in what I quoted in yours...

About the cost, I understand why they cost what they cost (I am an Engineer, and I do help sales in quoting custom machinery), but this is a group that, except for a few people, have a hard time justifying $350 for a full-custom bumper, let alone a set of end links that they not only still have use tools to remove, but that they have been running without (anti-roll bar), entirely... End links for most of the guys are just a "that might be nice, if it were nearly free" kind of thing...

Also, my end links lasted 6 months (the cold 6 months) just fine, until my wife had me take them off because they were starting to make noise (I got the non-greasable ones the first time, so the sand from winter ate away at them a little)... They didn't have but a couple thousandths of play, but they were starting to make a little bit of noise... I think most of it was between the heim and the bolt. They have also been tested pretty well on mine, because my wife drives everything like it's a f-ing F-1 car... I run in the fast end of Intermediate class on the track on motorcycles, and I can follow her down a twisty road on my bike and still be having a good time... Even completely stock, it wasn't at all uncommon for her to kick on Stabilitrac on dry pavement, and these lived with her driving like that all winter, with the skids, bumper, and 120# winch/mount sticking off the front of the bumper... Basically, if it's mechanical and can survive my wife, it's good... Also, I did wheel with them on... You've had yours on for a while, but have you wheeled and flexed out with them on? I have, and my "cheap, hack, nut welded to a piece of tube" links have held up fine, though when I had my top bolts like yours (non-QD), the rotation did lock up the heims and dent the lips of them, from the bolt heads... If you haven't flexed out with them (bolted through, not QD), you might do so, and look at the heim lips after... If you set them up for stock height and flex out, or if you set them up for lifted height and flex in, there is lateral movement on the lower, compared to the upper... Awesome thing about having short control arms...

Mike

[DirtyBacon04]

[/quote]
Not really realevant, but I really like the looks of these. If they were painted with zinc chromate, they would look just like the control linkages on every helicopter I've flown for the last 20+ years in the military. Ha.[/quote]


I was just thinking they look like UH-1N PCLs. In fact i was trying to get my hand on a few November PCLs before we completley transitioned to upgrades.