Wide or Narrow tire?

[dvanbramer88]

yes that is the trip/photos i meant.

My thought would be with the ruts already that deep and the mud that slick, id rather float on top of it with tall and wide M/T's than dig into it risking bottoming out and getting hopelessly stuck. Even if floating on top meant sliding around and struggling all day, at least you wont dig yourself into 4 square holes.

But i do see your point, you get a lot more bite with a narrower taller tire. There is a lot of situations where that extra bite is needed versus extra floatation. So basically your tire choice depends on your mission. There isn't really a do it tire configuration. All configurations/tread patterns have things they're really good at, others that they can do just fine, and others that they just suck at. i think at 265/75 is a good all purpose size. Now it doesn't shine at either extreme but is good for most situations. (it is also what i run in an aggressive A/T because of the beach i drive on once a year. They get really wide and floaty at 15psi) And even at full pressure they do get good bite on loose gravel IME. They also do well in deep snow.

[Trail X]

yes that is the trip/photos i meant.

My thought would be with the ruts already that deep and the mud that slick, id rather float on top of it with tall and wide M/T's than dig into it risking bottoming out and getting hopelessly stuck.

Not that 'wide' and 'tall' are always mutually exclusive, but I believe that's part of the reasoning behind going tall and skinny. By going skinny, you can get a larger diameter tire to fit due to the arc that the tire travels during steer. So, often they are considered somewhat exclusive of each other. Either a fat shorter tire, or a skinny taller tire.

In the photos you referenced, taller tires would have been better in my opinion. The biggest hurdle was depth of the ruts, not so much the loss of traction due to the mud. Had it been an up-hill climb, maybe things would be different. Either way, that kind of mud isn't much fun.

As for the first image you posted of me, that mud pit was seemingly botomless. I'm not sure wider tires would have made any difference for me... my tires cut through the mud, but my skidplate did not, so I ended up with the belly on the mud, with only the rear tires providing minimal traction (because the rear hadn't yet gotten that deep).

[dvanbramer88]

yes that is the trip/photos i meant.

My thought would be with the ruts already that deep and the mud that slick, id rather float on top of it with tall and wide M/T's than dig into it risking bottoming out and getting hopelessly stuck.

Not that 'wide' and 'tall' are always mutually exclusive, but I believe that's part of the reasoning behind going tall and skinny. By going skinny, you can get a larger diameter tire to fit due to the arc that the tire travels during steer. So, often they are considered somewhat exclusive of each other. Either a fat shorter tire, or a skinny taller tire.

In the photos you referenced, taller tires would have been better in my opinion. The biggest hurdle was depth of the ruts, not so much the loss of traction due to the mud. Had it been an up-hill climb, maybe things would be different. Either way, that kind of mud isn't much fun.

As for the first image you posted of me, that mud pit was seemingly botomless. I'm not sure wider tires would have made any difference for me... my tires cut through the mud, but my skidplate did not, so I ended up with the belly on the mud, with only the rear tires providing minimal traction (because the rear hadn't yet gotten that deep).

I can agree with that.

[fishsticks]

Ah yes, mud.

Note the skinny tires on this guy's truck. He tried every which way to get up this junk and got all tweaked.




Now for some 315/70/17 BFG ATs with about 20% tread.

[dvanbramer88]

I think Fishsticks is on the wide tire bandwagon.

[fishsticks]

I think Fishsticks is on the wide tire bandwagon.

Oh I am.

[bartonmd]

Ah yes, mud.

Note the skinny tires on this guy's truck. He tried every which way to get up this junk and got all tweaked.




Now for some 315/70/17 BFG ATs with about 20% tread.

Same vehicle, or same type of vehicle, maybe, but he wasn't lifted, and it looked like where he was stuck, there was a hump; so he was likely on his belly there, where he stopped. Also, IF he had a rear locker, we're all 3WD (you were, then, right?), but we're about 50/50 weight split, and trucks aren't anywhere near that balanced... Your 3 tires have about the same weight on them, where 2 of his 3 driving wheels have very little weight on them. Basically, your 3 drive wheels have 75% of your weight, where his 3 drive wheels have 60% of his weight. Not the same.

[dvanbramer88]

BUT that pickup weights way more than the TB overall, so that 60% is probably equal to your 75%. As far as those 3 particular tires are concerned, as a whole, they see about the same traction. Now i do know just how ass end light pickups are.

[bartonmd]

BUT that pickup weights way more than the TB overall, so that 60% is probably equal to your 75%. As far as those 3 particular tires are concerned, as a whole, they see about the same traction. Now i do know just how ass end light pickups are.

It's more about % of weight... My 3/4 ton diesel has more weight on the rear wheels than the TB, but it's worthless in 2WD, compared to the TB, because it's not very much weight pushing a bunch of undriven weight...

Mike

[dvanbramer88]

BUT that pickup weights way more than the TB overall, so that 60% is probably equal to your 75%. As far as those 3 particular tires are concerned, as a whole, they see about the same traction. Now i do know just how ass end light pickups are.

It's more about % of weight... My 3/4 ton diesel has more weight on the rear wheels than the TB, but it's worthless in 2WD, compared to the TB, because it's not very much weight pushing a bunch of undriven weight...

Mike

True...

[fishsticks]

Same vehicle, or same type of vehicle, maybe, but he wasn't lifted, and it looked like where he was stuck, there was a hump; so he was likely on his belly there, where he stopped. Also, IF he had a rear locker, we're all 3WD (you were, then, right?), but we're about 50/50 weight split, and trucks aren't anywhere near that balanced... Your 3 tires have about the same weight on them, where 2 of his 3 driving wheels have very little weight on them. Basically, your 3 drive wheels have 75% of your weight, where his 3 drive wheels have 60% of his weight. Not the same.

He has a welded rear end and was on 33x9.5s ( ) or some such thing. SFA obviously and much less underneath to get hung up on than me. He got stuck right there because he was trying all sorts of different directions to get up and couldn't. That was his last attempt and he couldn't back down.

We can continue to beat this to death if you want, but I'm just going to say this. I went from a 265/70/17 (32x10.5) to a 35x12.5 (both MTs) and gained a bunch in the traction department. I get the ground pressure argument, but the fact of the matter is that for a heavy rig, the shear strength of the rubber/surface you're on is the weakest link. All the ground pressure in the world does you no good if the ground is moving under you.

I looked at skinny tires way back when (there's a thread about it on here somewhere) based on the ground pressure idea. Then I went out and read real world experiences on the interwebs. Do I think a TB needs an 18" wide tire? Nope, but a 255/85/x tire won't be on any of my rigs, because I can fit bigger. Climate/mission? Sure, I'll buy that.


I can go take a video of me bringing the suck in the snow at street PSI, then airing down (making my tire both wider and longer = less ground pressure) and continuing on...

[dvanbramer88]

Same vehicle, or same type of vehicle, maybe, but he wasn't lifted, and it looked like where he was stuck, there was a hump; so he was likely on his belly there, where he stopped. Also, IF he had a rear locker, we're all 3WD (you were, then, right?), but we're about 50/50 weight split, and trucks aren't anywhere near that balanced... Your 3 tires have about the same weight on them, where 2 of his 3 driving wheels have very little weight on them. Basically, your 3 drive wheels have 75% of your weight, where his 3 drive wheels have 60% of his weight. Not the same.

He has a welded rear end and was on 33x9.5s ( ) or some such thing. SFA obviously and much less underneath to get hung up on than me. He got stuck right there because he was trying all sorts of different directions to get up and couldn't. That was his last attempt and he couldn't back down.

We can continue to beat this to death if you want, but I'm just going to say this. I went from a 265/70/17 (32x10.5) to a 35x12.5 (both MTs) and gained a bunch in the traction department. I get the ground pressure argument, but the fact of the matter is that for a heavy rig, the shear strength of the rubber/surface you're on is the weakest link. All the ground pressure in the world does you no good if the ground is moving under you.

I looked at skinny tires way back when (there's a thread about it on here somewhere) based on the ground pressure idea. Then I went out and read real world experiences on the interwebs. Do I think a TB needs an 18" wide tire? Nope, but a 255/85/x tire won't be on any of my rigs, because I can fit bigger. Climate/mission? Sure, I'll buy that.


I can go take a video of me bringing the suck in the snow at street PSI, then airing down (making my tire both wider and longer = less ground pressure) and continuing on...

That's why i am along with you and wider tires. Yes the narrow tire has a higher potential amount of traction BUT does the surface you are stuck on? I like wider because of a more stable ride, and more contact surface with the ground, A wider tire has more lugs, or if it is an identical tread pattern, the lugs them selves have larger edges creating more biting surface area than a narrow tire.

Basically Narrow=more potential traction Wider= higher ability to create traction and uses more of it's potential.

[bartonmd]

Same vehicle, or same type of vehicle, maybe, but he wasn't lifted, and it looked like where he was stuck, there was a hump; so he was likely on his belly there, where he stopped. Also, IF he had a rear locker, we're all 3WD (you were, then, right?), but we're about 50/50 weight split, and trucks aren't anywhere near that balanced... Your 3 tires have about the same weight on them, where 2 of his 3 driving wheels have very little weight on them. Basically, your 3 drive wheels have 75% of your weight, where his 3 drive wheels have 60% of his weight. Not the same.

He has a welded rear end and was on 33x9.5s ( ) or some such thing. SFA obviously and much less underneath to get hung up on than me. He got stuck right there because he was trying all sorts of different directions to get up and couldn't. That was his last attempt and he couldn't back down.

We can continue to beat this to death if you want, but I'm just going to say this. I went from a 265/70/17 (32x10.5) to a 35x12.5 (both MTs) and gained a bunch in the traction department. I get the ground pressure argument, but the fact of the matter is that for a heavy rig, the shear strength of the rubber/surface you're on is the weakest link. All the ground pressure in the world does you no good if the ground is moving under you.

I looked at skinny tires way back when (there's a thread about it on here somewhere) based on the ground pressure idea. Then I went out and read real world experiences on the interwebs. Do I think a TB needs an 18" wide tire? Nope, but a 255/85/x tire won't be on any of my rigs, because I can fit bigger. Climate/mission? Sure, I'll buy that.


I can go take a video of me bringing the suck in the snow at street PSI, then airing down (making my tire both wider and longer = less ground pressure) and continuing on...

You do remember on the first page when I agreed with you on the wider tire in the mud? And when I said that I sacrificed the snow traction on the street and gravel traction for the sake of distributing the load better with a load on wet ground? The point that I was making about the video was that things are so much different between you and him, that you can't possibly say "it was because my wires were 1.5" wider"...

Were you in deep snow when you were bringing the suck? Remember when I said that I'd take a wider tire in deep snow, for the floatation? Airing down is good for both, but most of what you're doing when you air down is giving your tire a ramp that isn't quite as steep to climb out of its hole that it continues to be in. Having a taller tire does the same thing. There is a reason snowmobiles have a track instead of a wheel in the back. There's also a balancing game to play, even on not-so-deep and packed snow, with tires without enough siping and biting edges... Airing down adds biting edges, but it lowers ground pressure, so it's a per-tire thing. There's also a video of Kyle REALLY struggling to get up stuff in the snow that everybody else (James, included) walked right up.

The real question is whether or not it's better for you, to have a little bit narrower, but taller tire, or a shorter, wider tire...

Mike

[fishsticks]

You do remember on the first page when I agreed with you on the wider tire in the mud? And when I said that I sacrificed the snow traction on the street and gravel traction for the sake of distributing the load better with a load on wet ground? The point that I was making about the video was that things are so much different between you and him, that you can't possibly say "it was because my wires were 1.5" wider"...

Were you in deep snow when you were bringing the suck? Remember when I said that I'd take a wider tire in deep snow, for the floatation? Airing down is good for both, but most of what you're doing when you air down is giving your tire a ramp that isn't quite as steep to climb out of its hole that it continues to be in. Having a taller tire does the same thing. There is a reason snowmobiles have a track instead of a wheel in the back. There's also a balancing game to play, even on not-so-deep and packed snow, with tires without enough siping and biting edges... Airing down adds biting edges, but it lowers ground pressure, so it's a per-tire thing. There's also a video of Kyle REALLY struggling to get up stuff in the snow that everybody else (James, included) walked right up.

The real question is whether or not it's better for you, to have a little bit narrower, but taller tire, or a shorter, wider tire...

Mike

3" wider. And no I don't remember anything beyond the last post. I'm just here to stir the pot.

Actually, I went up shooting with some guys on Tuesday. We went up into the higher elevation where the snow is actually sticking around finally. (Our snow has sucked this year). We got to a rise and I lost traction completely, to the point where I got out of the truck with it in drive and stood there watching the back wheels turn. I should have taken video... it was funny. I pulled the valve stems on the rears for about 10 seconds a piece until I got some good sidewall sag, then motored on. This was deepish snow... But it was packed into ruts which the tires were sitting on top of.

Yes I was in 2WD.... no I haven't replaced the intermediate shaft yet.

[bartonmd]

3" wider. And no I don't remember anything beyond the last post. I'm just here to stir the pot.

Actually, I went up shooting with some guys on Tuesday. We went up into the higher elevation where the snow is actually sticking around finally. (Our snow has sucked this year). We got to a rise and I lost traction completely, to the point where I got out of the truck with it in drive and stood there watching the back wheels turn. I should have taken video... it was funny. I pulled the valve stems on the rears for about 10 seconds a piece until I got some good sidewall sag, then motored on. This was deepish snow... But it was packed into ruts which the tires were sitting on top of.

Yes I was in 2WD.... no I haven't replaced the intermediate shaft yet.

I believe that... The ramp thing...

I didn't give you a splined disconnect... I gave you lots of really gay porn and an extra extra small penis pump...

Mike

[HARDTRAILZ]

I wont run skinnies. My 305s do great in the snow. I have zero desire in any conditions for a 33 or 34 inch skinny. The 34 10.50 swampers did not stay on my truck for more than a week. I will shortly have another set of 35 12.50s on my rig. I did avoid a 13.50 or 14.50's but that was for clearance, not because I would not prefer the extra width.

[chevycrew]

I think that this debate depends entirely on the conditions its in. I have had more problems with wide tires in mud than narrow, but my tires are also a lot taller.

[bartonmd]

I wont run skinnies. My 305s do great in the snow. I have zero desire in any conditions for a 33 or 34 inch skinny. The 34 10.50 swampers did not stay on my truck for more than a week. I will shortly have another set of 35 12.50s on my rig. I did avoid a 13.50 or 14.50's but that was for clearance, not because I would not prefer the extra width.

It's all what you're used to, and what's acceptable to you... I was seriously concerned about the lack of traction they were getting at TECORE, because they spun and slid when my little 245/70-17 BFG AT would have stuck like glue.

To be fair, though, I didn't ride on them in the snow when they were new, and still had the cuts in the middle of the tread. The ones I put in my M/Ts turned them from scary in the snow to acceptable... Also, the AT is a much better snow tire than pretty much any MT, particularly in the wet snow that we were in, there.

Mike

[HARDTRAILZ]

True. I may be used to poorer snow performance. I also ditched the brand new at tires knowing they have underperformed for my needs Offroad in the one past. We just don't get enough snow around here for me to base my tire selection on that. They generally plow what we do get right away anyway.

Our minivan does have blizzak snow tires but I don't really care for their performance without snow and we have literally driven it in snow once. I wont replace the snow tires for it. I can't justify having two sets of tires with our winters

[navigator]

you guys make great arguments.....
I like wide tires, they look way cooler dudes